Actually Leaders are constructed with 3 brains - located respectively in the genitals, stomach, and head. Unfortunately being classic A-B thinkers we can only respond to signals from one at a time (and in inverse proportion to the size of the brain).
According to Leonardo?s diagram the ideal Salsa follower has four arms and legs... and ideally two brains. Damn that Leonardo, he seems to have invented everything first! Of course finding a follower who's in two minds about foreplay might be slightly more desirable ;-)
Interestingly cheeky leaders come with at most three arms, making them able to lead left handed, right handed? and underhandedly too ;-)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 11:14:25 am by Litey »
This is getting a little over the top... You don't need a protractor.
Try measuring distance from center of axis to shoulder and also measure from shoulder to elbow. I think you'll find the ratio to be approximately 2:3. Alternatively, look closely at the Da Vinci drawing near the bottom of this post.
Round circle above is the head. Body core and arm are ellipses. Arm is pointed straight ahead, which makes the triangle (in red) a right triangle. A little trigonometry...
tangent of the angle = length of the opposite side (3) / length of the adjacent side (2)
angle = between 56 and 57
If the arm is pointed slightly towards the center of the body axis, our angle gets larger... closer to 60 degrees or roughly 1 o'clock.
I have no idea what you mean by 25/30 degrees from shoulder to elbow.
This is all getting overly complicated when it's actually quite simple...
1) Never straighten your arm - there should always be a bend at the elbow even on 'open break' type moves.
2) Never allow your elbow to pass behind the line of your body.
3) During a spin (followers), keep your leading arm in an 'L' shape with your elbow at the same height as your shoulder. Your elbow should be about 45 degrees from your face.
4) Tension should only be applied in the horizontal plane (forward/backward), never in the vertical (up/down).
Not bad, except for (3). If your elbow is about 45 degrees from your face, it's positioned far too right (assuming Right arm is in L position). It's more like 60 degrees (or about 1 o'clock) relative to center of face - or straight ahead/forward from shoulder or slightly in towards the center of body axis depending on whom you talk to.
You're probably assuming that center of body axis from neck to shoulder is equidistant to from shoulder to elbow - this is wrong.
Sorry, I'll get my protractor out next time
Actually, having just sat here with my arm in the air, I'd still say 45 degrees from central axis to elbow ... which equates to 25/30 degrees from shoulder to elbow (assuming straight ahead is zero degrees)
This is all getting overly complicated when it's actually quite simple...
1) Never straighten your arm - there should always be a bend at the elbow even on 'open break' type moves.
2) Never allow your elbow to pass behind the line of your body.
3) During a spin (followers), keep your leading arm in an 'L' shape with your elbow at the same height as your shoulder. Your elbow should be about 45 degrees from your face.
4) Tension should only be applied in the horizontal plane (forward/backward), never in the vertical (up/down).
Not bad, except for (3). If your elbow is about 45 degrees from your face, it's positioned far too right (assuming Right arm is in L position). It's more like 60 degrees (or about 1 o'clock) relative to center of face - or straight ahead/forward from shoulder or slightly in towards the center of body axis depending on whom you talk to.
You're probably assuming that center of body axis from neck to shoulder is equidistant to from shoulder to elbow - this is wrong.
Salsa addict you have concisely put into four points what has taken about 10 people to say in three pages. Now if only we could download that into the minds of learner salsa dancers the dancefloor woudl be a much better place. Unfortunately some people will never listen no matter how many times you tell them.
I vote for all of the above!? ?Well said! Except to say that all followers are told this time and time again in class - but rarely do it until they reach advanced level ;-)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 01:36:30 pm by Litey »
This is all getting overly complicated when it's actually quite simple...
1) Never straighten your arm - there should always be a bend at the elbow even on 'open break' type moves.
2) Never allow your elbow to pass behind the line of your body.
3) During a spin (followers), keep your leading arm in an 'L' shape with your elbow at the same height as your shoulder. Your elbow should be about 45 degrees from your face.
4) Tension should only be applied in the horizontal plane (forward/backward), never in the vertical (up/down).
You're all gonna hate me for saying this...but I think someones attention to the points of contact where leads occur is far more important than the tension in their muscles. Soft arms where the follower is focused is as easy to lead as someone with greater tension....well in my highly limited experience. I will take attention over tension any day.
Tension to me simply confers a continuous ?invitation? to lead ? and even light tension when given continuously confirms the follower?s attention.
Regarding tension (and resistance), I find that it is SO difficult to lead even a simple Copa effectively without it - I wonder if that's why you see so many leaders mistakenly taking huge "back charges" before a Copa. I wonder if they're erroneously trying to conjure tension from a follower where none exists.
For example all the best followers that I have danced with have (without exception) delivered springy (or taut elastic) tension in response to a lead for a Copa. The very best also provide immediate resistance in their arm (3rd beat position) so that the leader is given the option of leading the follower forward or backward on the 5th beat.
Additionally if a follower provides some resistance in partnership hold without waiving their right hand around like a manic window cleaner then I find that this helps a lot too.
In the case of a ?drop hand catch? (post drop) I tend to find that tension in the eyes of a follower is gently placing their hand in contact with the leader ? but I?d much rather they additionally pulled back against my hand even if gently.
Setting up for spins ? by beat 3 followers should be in ?pizza man? (or L-Frame) position and ?prepped?. The follower should be ready to provide enough resistance to the leader as if they were an ?arm wrestler?.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 01:25:55 pm by Litey »
You're all gonna hate me for saying this...but I think someones attention to the points of contact where leads occur is far more important than the tension in their muscles. Soft arms where the follower is focused is as easy to lead as someone with greater tension....well in my highly limited experience. I will take attention over tension any day. However there is a a middle ground where I'm more comfortable both leading and following.
Oh and I agree with Azure dreamers Spring idea. I like the connection to be springy or bouncy, especially with anything breaking backwards...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 02:48:34 pm by technominx »
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I'm just saying that the point of spring or elastic is that they have the ability to change shape (by collapsing or stretching) and have the ability to get back to its original shape. You don't want to lose the shape of your body position / frame when dancing.
You don't stay a constant 40cm away from each other at all times, you come closer, you move away. You don't dance like a robot or a block of wood. A bit of body motion is good... what you don't want to lose is your sense of connection. There is a give and take... and it should never be "sudden" or "jerky".
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If you want to tell your partner, "Be like a spring," I won't stop you.
I'm just saying that the point of spring or elastic is that they have the ability to change shape (by collapsing or stretching) and have the ability to get back to its original shape. You don't want to lose the shape of your body position / frame when dancing. Thus the the use of the word "spring" or "elastic" is wrong and misleading (and dubious at best).
You don't need an "instant" response to a lead... you want an "explosive" one. Like you both know what's coming... and you are waiting, waiting, waiting for the beat... and then bang, she's moved.
Now you're talking about tension - although strictly not in a traditional definition of tension in relation to connection or nervous tension ... more like anticipation as the music nears one of those small climaxes...
So unless you are talking about springs or elastic that hardly moves, analogy is potentially highly misleading.
Don't think about the movement... think about the QUALITY of the movement... think about the way it FEELS. (If anything, a "spring" would move a lot less.. a lot of stored energy there... )
You don't need an "instant" response to a lead... you want an "explosive" one. Like you both know what's coming... and you are waiting, waiting, waiting for the beat... and then bang, she's moved.
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Take a spring (see above). Push down and it'll collapse. It will revert to its original shape without outside force of course.
No... it compresses. It stores energy. It "pushes back". Same concept with elastic when you stretch it... there is a tension there; it should feel more like a bounce than a sharp change in direction.
All I'm saying is a spring or rubber band can be forced to stay mis-shapen for a fairly long time and even indefinitely (yes the energy is still "stored" there) and you don't want that when dancing.
Here's another example of why I think elastic example is potentially misleading. Take a string of elastic and tie a rock at the end. Now throw the rock. The elastic now stretches ... stretches ... and stretches until it gets to a point where the initial external force is equalized by an internal force of elastic "wanting" (there's probably a better word for this) to get back to its original shape is reached. Now elastic would start to shorten (and probably overshoots). One can easily see a situation where the elastic would be stretched quite a lot - easily for a second or two or three.
In dancing, you pretty much want near instant response to leads and you don't want the frame or connection to get mis-shapen ever, right? So unless you are talking about springs or elastic that hardly moves, analogy is potentially highly misleading. Even then, you have to qualify it with follower or spring generating considerably more force (e.g. for spinning) than she or it received.
Have you tried playing the part of the follower in a spin? Perhaps the spring analogy might "feel" right for the leader, but I really doubt it would seem like an apt description for followers.
Take a spring (see above). Push down and it'll collapse. It will revert to its original shape without outside force of course.
No... it compresses. It stores energy. It "pushes back". Same concept with elastic when you stretch it... there is a tension there; it should feel more like a bounce than a sharp change in direction.
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Downside is more likely to be that neither she nor any of her friends will ever dance with you again as you've completely creeped her out.
nah... the only thing that really gets you into trouble is being boring.
For one thing, she has complete control over the situation... if she's uncomfortable with things all she has to do is not look down. At no point are you ever behaving inappropriately with regard to her... you are mostly telling her she is being way to forward with you, and that its OK.
There's a difference between a bit cheeky and a bit creepy; when she can call things off whenever she likes, choose the pace, and how far to go (remember, her hands are on you... you never touch her), that'll just be cheeky.
Creepy is that guy that stands in the corner just staring at her all night.
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(Warn her that if she keeps looking down you are going tease her mercilessly: "checking out the goods again I see", "like what you see down there?", loop your left thumb through your belt, point the index finger towards.. yeah ..., "I don't know what you are looking down there for... you need to turn me on a bit more first... lets try this... (put her hand on your chest), unbutton my shirt and think about writing you most exciting sexual fantasy on my chest using your finger..." "you are done writing already? geez, thats what, 10 sec? I'm insulted! I'm good for at least 30 seconds, -maybe- even 45, if we include getting undressed and I have trouble getting your bra off!")
Upside: she willl never look down while dancing again Downside: she will never be able to look at you without giggling
Downside is more likely to be that neither she nor any of her friends will ever dance with you again as you've completely creeped her out.
Slight digression here: how can women learn to lighten up? I ask because I dance regularly with a woman who is a good dancer in terms of rhythm and co-ordination but she's heavy to lead and I much prefer leading lightly. How can she learn to follow more lightly? Or are some women always going to be like that? (It's no reflection on her physique - she's no heavyweight and I've danced with quite, er, substantial women who can follow light leads).
Is this for spinning or everything in general? The follower is supposed to provide just about all the energy needed to spin. The lead is there to give timing and direction not to power her round. If she's not spinning herself and is relying on you to turn her then she's going to feel heavy. If it's not just spins then it could be also an arm and core strength thing as other people have mentioned - if she's not keeping a bit of tension in her body and frame then you'll get a damping effect going on which will make her feel heavier.
After all, although you may want the follower to react to your leads like a spring, you don't want any of her body parts (including arms as you already noted but also including elbow relative to waist as well) to move (stretch and collapse) like a spring or elastic.
well, actually I do... it should feel more like a "compression" or a "bounce"... like pushing off a mattress instead of pushing off a wall. You just don't want -unnecessary- movement...
(and collapse? take a piece of elastic and pull ... take a spring and push... how could they collapse?)
I was questioning choice of the words spring and elastic rather than your intent.
I'm saying this with intent of getting a beginner to understand the concept (rather than a competent social dancer).
Take a spring (see above). Push down and it'll collapse. It will revert to its original shape without outside force of course.
Similarly, you can take an elastic (say a rubberband) and stretch it.
Moreover, with spring and elastic all consequent movements are direct response to outside force (i.e. generated by the leader) whereas the follower is providing majority of the force in responding to a lead.
I'm just saying it's very easy to misinterpret. Not unlike Pizza waiter or Pizza man position...
After all, although you may want the follower to react to your leads like a spring, you don't want any of her body parts (including arms as you already noted but also including elbow relative to waist as well) to move (stretch and collapse) like a spring or elastic.
well, actually I do... it should feel more like a "compression" or a "bounce"... like pushing off a mattress instead of pushing off a wall.? You just don't want -unnecessary- movement...
(and collapse?? take a piece of elastic and pull ... take a spring and push... how could they collapse?)
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If I can work out how to broach the subject without seeming to patronise her I might give some of your exercises a go.
They are also very good ways to work on your lead...? you might phrase it like that.
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I think not holding her own weight is part of the problem.
Make sure her head is up.? If she is looking down this instantly puts her weight in a bad position.?
(Warn her that if she keeps looking down you are going tease her mercilessly: "checking out the goods again I see", "like what you see down there?", loop your left thumb through your belt, point the index finger towards.. yeah ..., "I don't know what you are looking down there for... you need to turn me on a bit more first... lets try this... (put her hand on your chest), unbutton my shirt and think about writing you most exciting sexual fantasy on my chest using your finger..." "you are done writing already?? geez, thats what, 10 sec?? I'm insulted!? I'm good for at least 30 seconds, -maybe- even 45, if we include getting undressed and I have trouble getting your bra off!")
Upside:? she willl never look down while dancing again Downside:? she will never be able to look at you without giggling
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 01:52:25 pm by AzureDreamer »
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Good response from AzureDreamer - the analogy of 'background noise' is a very good one. I think not holding her own weight is part of the problem. If I can work out how to broach the subject without seeming to patronise her I might give some of your exercises a go.
I would just prefer a follower to provide me with enough continuous tension to allow me to lead effectively. Perhaps this should be the subject of a separate vote.
I totally agree. Tension (as well as timing - lack of which is even bigger pet peeve for me) probably deserves its own topic.
Mentally, I tend to picture elbows attached to my waist with elastic... and the connection is a "push/pull" feel to it.. like a spring. Very little arm movement at all, and a fairly light connection in a neutral position.
Spring or elastic really isn't a good word, no? After all, although you may want the follower to react to your leads like a spring, you don't want any of her body parts (including arms as you already noted but also including elbow relative to waist as well) to move (stretch and collapse) like a spring or elastic.
In terms of leading, I think "sharp" vs. "soft" are probably misleading terms... they obscure what is really going on. A lead to me is a change in pressure (in the case of turns) or a change in body position (for movement.)
The real question to me is "how much background noise is there?" You need much larger movement to get over that "noise" if you or your partner use a lot of arm motion, and that means more momentum. You need to apply more force to check your partners weight at the end.
By the way when I first started this topic, my definitions of the words sharp and soft were closest to light and heavy/forceful, respectively, as used by many of you. I hadn't bothered to say this before because I figured that this became evident to most people. I started this topic because many followers would interpret light leads as "not clear" because they can't feel it - probably because of not enough tension (or is connection better word here?) or "background noise" (one or both making a lot of unnecessary arm movements).
In terms of leading, I think "sharp" vs. "soft" are probably misleading terms... they obscure what is really going on.? A lead to me is a change in pressure (in the case of turns) or a change in body position (for movement.)
The real question to me is "how much background noise is there?"? You need much larger movement to get over that "noise" if you or your partner use a lot of arm motion, and that means more momentum.? You need to apply more force to check your partners weight at the end.
Mentally, I tend to picture elbows attached to my waist with elastic... and the connection is a "push/pull" feel to it.. like a spring.? Very little arm movement at all, and a fairly light connection in a neutral position.
For girls that feel heavy, this is probably because they are not holding up their own weight... they are leaning on you.? Lot of bad things happen then... like imagine trying to rotate a pole that is straight up and down vs. one at a 30-degree angle.? The are just a lot slower on the turns, and they are always off balance because their weight isn't over their feet.?
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How can she learn to follow more lightly?? Or are some women always going to be like that?
I think its worthwhile to do some basic excercises if you dance a lot with one person.? Some things that have helped me in the past:
- dance with a piece of paper held up between the two of you.? Start just moving around... forwards, backwards, side-to-side.? There should be sufficient pressure that when he moves backwards, the paper doesn't drop.? That's the amount of pressure i want at all times when nothing else is being indicated.
- dance with the man having his arms behind the back, woman with her arms on his shoulders (or wherever works) do basics and cross-body leads.? he needs to lead entirely by shifting his weight, not with his arms. and she needs to figure out how to follow without him using any arm movement.
- dance and try to have no arm movement at all other than what is required for leading.? Keep your elbows near your waists.?
- dance and concentrate on seperating out the leads for a "turn" and a "move" , they should be two different motions; two seperate and distinct leads.? Turn on the spot, then move.? Really focus on NEVER moving and turning at the same time, and feel what each lead is like.? Followers must focus on not anticipating the second lead just because they know it will come next.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2006, 11:10:04 am by AzureDreamer »
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I've found beating your partner with a blunt object tends to get the point across?
Sound's like you've been to Madame Slap Slap's school of obedient Salsa - where a mans lead is always round his neck, and a Cuban hold involves a little dexterity and a well greased cigar tube.
I wouldn't ask for cross body - Madame can be positively "livid".
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 03:20:11 pm by Litey »
Sure, she'll give you more tension... might be round your neck though ;-)
Honestly though, 'tension and resistance' is part of the key - with out it you can't lead anything effectively - heavily or lightly. So few followers appreciate that.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 03:00:35 pm by Litey »
How can she learn to follow more lightly? Or are some women always going to be like that?
I like a soft lead and in the past, I've had men (usually improver/intermediate) who lead me forcefully and as I am petite, I sometimes, go I flying everywhere.
If a man does this to me, I stop dancing & tell him to apply less force. Then, I stretch my arms out (horizontally) to his arms and put my palms onto his palms. Then, I will strongly push his palms, to show him that he really is "pushing" me too much & for him to experience what it is like.
This also works, if a man is too much a soft lead (i.e. spagetti arms). You need to show him, that he more precise & to apply slightly more force.
Or get your female partner to "lead" you and then you should dance "heavy", then she should get an idea of hard it is, to lead, a "heavy" follower.
You just need to explain & show your female friend, the above.
Slight digression here: how can women learn to lighten up? I ask because I dance regularly with a woman who is a good dancer in terms of rhythm and co-ordination but she's heavy to lead and I much prefer leading lightly. How can she learn to follow more lightly? Or are some women always going to be like that? (It's no reflection on her physique - she's no heavyweight and I've danced with quite, er, substantial women who can follow light leads).
When you say 'heavy' do you mean stiff arms (especially overhead) or do you mean she's slow to execute moves, especially spins and turns? Or is it something else?
I think that many ladies seem 'heavy' if they are not quick and precise enough in executing moves you lead. Sometimes it's just that they are slow; but some seem to take more time to wiggle or do a bit of body styling at the expense of precise execution of a move. Result can be they are a bit late coming into the next move and that's when things get heavier.
If your lady in question is otherwise 'a good dancer' you'll just have to adapt I think!
If it's not the above then there are leading / following exercises you can do to develop responsiveness in the follower (but would she be willing?) .... one finger each hand; eyes closed; hands-off leading etc. etc.
Slight digression here: how can women learn to lighten up? I ask because I dance regularly with a woman who is a good dancer in terms of rhythm and co-ordination but she's heavy to lead and I much prefer leading lightly. How can she learn to follow more lightly? Or are some women always going to be like that? (It's no reflection on her physique - she's no heavyweight and I've danced with quite, er, substantial women who can follow light leads).
One thing I would like to add is how many times have you tried to double spin an intermediate follower and had a poor set up of the "Pizza Man" or "L-frame" - Elbow out is the most common, and after that so little lateral tension that when you push her the frame moves, but the body connected to it doesn't (The "Half Weightlifter Position" - or "Paw of the Chinese Money Cat".).
"Pizza Man" is a good expression to describe the shape of the L-Frame, but "Arm Wrestler? is a better indication of how much lateral force the follower must apply in resistance to the leader. Again Susanna and Joe bang on about it week after week and only a handful take notice - again, they are by far the best followers to dance with.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 03:27:29 pm by Litey »
I would just prefer a follower to provide me with enough continuous tension to allow me to lead effectively. Perhaps this should be the subject of a separate vote.
I agree that a sharp lead is preferable, but the more advanced the follower - and the more tension she provides - the less sharply I need to lead. Angelique is positively against strong leads and recommends that the better your partner the less you need ? I?d say she?s right and here?s why?
So few followers understand the importance of tension, or indeed what it actually means - to some this just means "grip and squeeze the leader?s fingers", which of course it is not!
Tension is all about by pulling (or pushing) against your partners lead ? simply a positive opposition ? but not as strong as to be interpreted as defiance!
How many times have you spun an intermediate follower and had her raise her hand in a forcefully executed a flare ? so forceful that it?s impossible to trace the halo one inch above her head. It just throws both off balance.
I know that Susana Montero and Joe David?s drum the importance of this into their followers, and those that actually listen are a real pleasure to dance with.
Last night at Bar Salsa one of the regular followers in Susana?s advanced lesson is still providing as much tension as a ghost and blaming the leaders for losing contact. Heaven help the leader that tries to tell that follower about tension! I foolishly tried it, and I got tension alright, just the wrong kind. Still flaring whilst she spins too I might add.
Or do the followers want us to provide the momentum for their spins etc, rather than 'inviting' them to spin or perform steps, travelling etc under their own power ..? I hope not ...
I hope not too - those that do expect a leader to grind them round their turns play havoc with the shoulders!
With the right follower, I prefer to lead clearly and smothly with a finger-tip touch, but be ready to provide support if she looses her balance. A sudden stronger hold and a lead away from potential trouble is all the more effective due to the contrast.
I think an important aspect of a lead is that the follower should feel safe and confident in the leader's ability to keep her safe.
Very interesting. Thus far 5 people made responding posts. All 5 posters are leaders, and 3 seem to be preferring soft leads, 1 says it doesn't matter, 1 offers no discernible opinion. Meanwhile, 3 people voted on the poll section - all 3 are followers, and all 3 say they prefer sharp leads. I'd be curious to see if this pattern holds up.
Would they be trying to say that they prefer a firm lead? You're not really comparing opposites in your poll. I would have thought it would either be sharp vs smooth or firm vs soft. To me sharp implies jerky.
Brendan
Yes - we've got a number of terms here, not necessarily synonyms...
KadInCam's original post (rather than the poll) used the word 'force' and forcefulness' and I'd wager the followers who polled for 'sharp' would have rejected 'force'.
I'd take 'sharp' to mean 'crisp' , quick and clear rather than 'strong,' forceful
I'd also distinguish 'soft' (as in the dreaded spaghetti arm) from 'light' as opposed to 'heavy' lead - and I'd bet the followers would go for 'light' if opposed to 'heavy'
I think a lead should be clear, firm, sharp as in precise; but, within the range of mutual pressures that should be set by the leader, as light and sensitive as it can be without prejudicing clarity.
Or do the followers want us to provide the momentum for their spins etc, rather than 'inviting' them to spin or perform steps, travelling etc under their own power ..? I hope not ...
Very interesting. Thus far 5 people made responding posts. All 5 posters are leaders, and 3 seem to be preferring soft leads, 1 says it doesn't matter, 1 offers no discernible opinion. Meanwhile, 3 people voted on the poll section - all 3 are followers, and all 3 say they prefer sharp leads. I'd be curious to see if this pattern holds up.
Would they be trying to say that they prefer a firm lead? You're not really comparing opposites in your poll. I would have thought it would either be sharp vs smooth or firm vs soft. To me sharp implies jerky.
Very interesting. Thus far 5 people made responding posts. All 5 posters are leaders, and 3 seem to be preferring soft leads, 1 says it doesn't matter, 1 offers no discernible opinion. Meanwhile, 3 people voted on the poll section - all 3 are followers, and all 3 say they prefer sharp leads. I'd be curious to see if this pattern holds up.
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